Wikings, Determining What's "Real"???

[ALetner]

This is really a plea for some expert assistance. I have the Wikings shown in the pictures below. Since all cameras take, and monitors display colors slightly differently I have loaded multiple pictures in an attempt to capture the color differences, variation in gloss, etc. I have quite a few of the gray-green models that I consider typical (1st & 2nd images), I then got the other two differently colored specimens. All are marked with the WM logo & a nation of origin letter or letters followed by a number.
The Waco CG-4 (USA 27) however, does not have the usual gloss or sheen that the others do and is what I call more of a plastic toy army man color. In addition to that the wing will bend a bit if I try to flex it. If dropped on a hard surface, the "ring" is similar in tone to the others but does not quite have the same ring that the others do. The darker green E25, which I think is an Albemarle, has thicker prop discs than most, is obviously a darker green than the 'typical' yet has the same tone as the others when dropped. Neither model appears to have any trace of the turquoise color to the glazed areas.
Can someone tell me what I actually have here? Are there early war, mid-war, and post-war models? Are either of these reproductions? Does anyone have a list of what was actually produced during the war? How do I tell, especially from photos what is "real" from what is not?
I have been told that once I have the model, the best way to tell is to dip a wing tip in boiling water. If it can be bent then it is not a true war time Wiking because the melt point of a true wartime Wiking is 280°. Is that the only way? Naturally, I would greatly prefer to be able to tell prior to purchase what I am looking at when I see one.







Thanks!

[grwebster]

AJ, from what I see from the photos the dark green one is a post war production by Dr. Grope who acquired all the existing molds from Wiking and remanufactured them. The thicker prop disc is one clue, and the plastic color is another. There is also a difference in the plastic used which does sound a slight bit different when pinged. I also see a difference in the crispness of the edges and the cast-in details on Grope models which could be another clue. I do not think any of the Dr. Grope models were sold painted with the Wiking blue windshield color. The ones I have were not, at least. Finally the prop hubs are a different color, usually the same as the casting.
Here are some examples:

An Original Wiking He-116


a Dr. grope He-116 model


Here are two other Grope models:
A German Siebel 204D

and a Polish PZL37

I also have a Sunderland some where.

As far as the hot water test goes, I believe that was meant for resin Wiking reproductions and for models made by Ron Crawford {HBM} and the like in the Wiking style. Injected molded plastic airplanes from either Wiking or Dr Grope will not soften. The resin models are easy to identify as they all have to be painted and they sound very different if pinged.

I do not have the Glider so it is hard to comment from just the photos. First reaction is that it is a Grope.

One thing I learned from our expert Ron Crawford is that the original Wiking prop hubs which I thought were always plastic can also be made of wood. He feels that about 50% of the production was wood.
Some original wikings were painted by the factory in a matte od- your B&V 222 looks like it was one.
Decals/transfers were used sometimes but not always.

BTW if you ever run across a blue Wiking like the one below, it is ultra rare. It was produced during the war by Wiking for retail sale to civilians.

[ALetner]

Thanks GR! That's exactly the type of information I am interested in getting.

[ronc200]

It is worth commenting further on the validation issue. First, as GR mentions, you must contend with the differences in Wikings made in different time periods. Start off if possible with some basic articles from magazines like Plane News. Those will outline the different documented series. Ernst Kahlbau has an extraordinarily detailed monograph that actually lists what he thinks appeared in the various series. He may still have copies or maybe you can get one on ebay.de or addall.com. Then there are the reproductions. The Grope models, like your CG4A and Albemarle were licensed repros made in the original (but refurbished and not always identical) molds. There have been no other official re-releases, and I strongly doubt there ever will be. Wolf Grope lost his shirt on it.

What should concern collectors more are underground, pirate copies. I suspect that at least a dozen people have made copies of numbers of Wiking aircraft, vehicles, ships, etc.. I have identified close to that number by name.

Some made very small numbers to share with friends, but even in such cases misuse has occurred. One European museum that has a very nice collection had at least three of its rarest pieces swapped for such copies. I was the one who documented their loss by pointing to subtle but very visible differences in the copies. I made copies of a couple of rare birds but made sure they could never pass for real by casting the copies in metal.

Most other pirate copy makers were frankly lacking in basic skills. One, for example, made his copies from Gießholz, a material used for duplicating wood objects which shrinks about 10% when it hardens. Another made his copies in a cheap urethane similar to Castmaster. Those have a terrible smell of formaldehyde. Several others were just plain terrible craftsmen and produced copies that just plain looked awful. The most common problem is grossly thickened wings and tailplanes.

Unfortunately there are also a couple of people who make copies that are so perfect in color, casting quality, and so on that they are virtually indistinguishable from originals. Very large numbers of those were made by two gents in the Czech Republic, and the largest batches were represented as originals when they were resold by well known and certainly knowledgeable collectors in Berlin and elsewhere. All I can say about that is that collectors who bought incredibly rare birds for 50 bucks or so were asking for trouble. The problem today is that many of the copies have changed hands several times.

You can validate Wikings several ways. Showing them to an expert is usually your best route. Those of us with 40 plus years of collecting them can recognize subtle differences between originals and excellent copies. Your next best bets are comparing the sound of a known original and a possible copy when tapped on glass, holding the suspect bird in boiling water long enough to see if it will soften (don't worry - a copy which bends in water will also reset itself, because that material has a "memory"). In a few cases I have used lab scales to weigh possible copies, because the cheap epoxy the best copies are made from has a lower density.

I hope this is helpful. When time permits I will try to post an updated bibliography on Wikings.

Ron

[ALetner]

When were the the Dr. Grope models made? Late 1940s, '50s, '60s?

[grwebster]

1980s, I believe but Ron will confirm
BTW a nice grouping of Grope Wikings was sold at auction in Germany this week.
Messerschmitt Me 262,
it Included the following:
E 4 "Fairy- Battle" (mit Prägung "B-BAT")

Fokker G1

PL P-MEWA

PL P-SUM

PL PZL 37 Los

R 7 "TB-7"

R 11 "Lagg-5"

USA 5 "Boston"

USA 27 "Hadrian"

USA DC-3

go to
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie ... 27194.html

[ronc200]

Going back to Al's query about Grope reproductions, you are looking at the middle to late 1980's. After Mr. Peltzer's death the firm was sold to the parent company of Schuco. In the inventory were many of the old molds, and Wolf-Dietrich Grope negotiated a deal that must have had all their managers grinning. He footed the bill for having the molds refurbished as well as for having reproductions injection molded in styrene. He then set about trying to sell enough copies to pay for the project. I have heard that he lost megabucks. The models are a huge bargain for collectors, however. Many were able to get authentic copies of models that were incredibly rare and expensive as wartime models. The irony is that the rare types sold so well that it is actually more difficult to get Grope editions of some of the common types. Dr. Grope passed away some years ago, and I do not know of anyone who has reliable exact dates or numbers for the project.