No. 706, No. 708/893, No. 60E/803 Three Dinky Toys Viscounts

[grwebster]

British Viscount (Air France) No. 706 Scale 1/193. 1956
This was issued and quickly withdrawn due the French making a similar version. The under wing markings were ‘DINKY TOYS - VISCOUNT - 706 - MADE IN ENGLAND - MECCANO LTD’ and carried the registration F-BGNL. (The French version had F-BGNX.) It used unattractive flat headed propeller pins, red propellers, and did not have gear doors. This toy was only made for a very limited time and should be much harder to find than it is.


British Viscount (B.E.A.) Nos. 708/803. Scale 1/193. 1957-1965
Put into production following the French Dinky Air France Viscount debacle and the withdrawal of the British Air France Viscount, the B.E.A. version was made up to represent the newer 800 Viscount having 13 windows on starboard side, 12 on port side. The old reference number 706 was removed and not replaced. Marked ‘DINKY TOYS - VISCOUNT - MADE IN ENGLAND - MECCANO LTD’. It carried the registration G-AOJA on the starboard wing and BEA on the port one and usually had small rounded proeller pins. First finished in silver, later by 1963 in grey and finally by 1965, it appeared with plastic treaded wheels (Note: the tooling was sold on to India by 1968 and several different versions were made locally as Nicky Toys.)


Above are the two British Viscounts.



French Vickers Viscount No. 60 E/803. Scale 1/190. 1957-1960
This casting appeared only in Air France livery with the registration F-BGNX and marker ‘DINKY TOYS - VICKERS VISCOUNT - 60 E - MADE IN FRANCE- MECCANO’. The French version had gear doors, cast outlines on the fuselage for the entrance doors, and red spinner type prop pins with silver metal propellers. The toy was renumbered 803 in 1959 but the casting remained unchanged. No variations noted.


The two Dinky Air France Viscounts. When seen side by side the differences are easily seen. The larger French one has the gear doors and the red prop spinners (on the left above).

[Tone]

Thanks for your comparison photos and descriptions! I love Dinky Toy Viscounts. I notice the artist J Masse actually signed the box art.

[aliflore]

My models:

[998]

Lovely photos that really show the difference of these 3.

Currently, I'm on a bit of a off-and-on quest to replace my AF 'English' Viscount that I destroyed royally as a kid. I'm looking for one in very nice condition to combo up with my prize CPA Britannia. I have noticed the French version does offer a bit more finesse, but it wasn't what I had (and hated with a passion -- long story) so I'll be chasing 706.

It is also interesting to note the difference of waterslide vs. (what appears to be) spirit decals on the Viscount.

[grwebster]

Chris, I think we exchanged emails on the Talk Models Dinky forum, no?

Anyway I do note the yellowed transfer decals on the French Viscount which could indicate spirit based as opposed to water based transfers.
I think it is hard to date exactly when the French changed over to spirit based. This could largely depend on when stocks were depleted of the older ones. The French Viscount was produced only until say mid-1960, but it stayed in the catalog and was sold from stock for many years thereafter.

The UK produced Britannia's first issue in 1959 according to catalogs had incorrect 'blue' water slide transfer decals and the correct 'red' version appeared shortly afterwards, on or by 1960. Looking at my 2 'red' versions, one appears to have the non-yellowing water slide ones, but the other one has the yellowed, spirit based ones, but I have no idea of exactly when after 1960 either was produced so no real help there. I

I note that the Britannia with 'blue' must be the rarer of the 3 variants {the last one having grey instead of silver} as it was probably only in production for well less that a year, perhaps only once before the change to 'red' so we could think of a post 1960 date for the general use of spirit transfers at the earliest in British production. Still nothing to confirm this.

There was 'blue' and a 'red' version of the box, too. see below. The 'red' version has non-yellowed decals.


BTW, You just don't see Britannias {any of them} around any more . It was hard to find in the 1980s and expensive, too.

Here is the last grey version with 'red' transfer decals showing the yellowing.


Same with the French and UK Viscounts, The first British one which was in production for less than a year, should be very much harder to find, and more expensive, but the market doesn't differentiate between these variants. Personally I find the BEA version the hardest to find, don't know why.

Here is the British Air France one in production for less than a year.


BTW, I have probably 2 or 3 of the early English Viscount, i think two loose and one in the box- but will have to check when I return to the USA on Jan 23rd. PM or email me then and I look for them, or better yet please come to the Airplane only toy show in Florida on January 28th. There will be 1,000s of aircraft toys and models for sale or trade among the 20 or so collectors bring aircraft toys and models to the show. {My entire Dinky collection and many others {Dinky, Mercury, Solido, will be available, too.}
Go to viewtopic.php?f=3&p=5734#p5732

[grwebster]

While I am posting here, I got to thinking which few of the many toys and models I will keep after the sales and auctions. Among all my pre-1965 Dinky Toys, one for sure is the 'blue' Britannia in the 'blue' box. Also the boxed Shetland, an unboxed Vulcan, a few of the early prewar camouflaged examples, a very nice Swissair Cravelle, perhaps one or two others. The rest will find new homes.

[998]

Chris, I think we exchanged emails on the Talk Models Dinky forum, no?

I do remember exchanging posts with you on a DT related thread on either The Diecast Hangar Pub or DAF, (or perhaps even Diecast Flight Deck?). Regardless, we have chatted, but it has to be a couple of years now.

Anyway I do note the yellowed transfer decals on the French Viscount which could indicate spirit based as opposed to water based transfers.
I think it is hard to date exactly when the French changed over to spirit based. This could largely depend on when stocks were depleted of the older ones. The French Viscount was produced only until say mid-1960, but it stayed in the catalog and was sold from stock for many years thereafter.

I am of the understanding that spirit-based transfers do not yellow, whereas water-based ones do. Am I completely turned around on this?

The UK produced Britannia's first issue in 1959 according to catalogs had incorrect 'blue' water slide transfer decals and the correct 'red' version appeared shortly afterwards, on or by 1960. Looking at my 2 'red' versions, one appears to have the non-yellowing water slide ones, but the other one has the yellowed, spirit based ones, but I have no idea of exactly when after 1960 either was produced so no real help there.

The way I understand it is, the model was released with blue lines in April 1959. One month later, a 'change order' was issued to rectify the colours of the cheatlines to red. So those blue ones weren't out long, even if we assume the production line didn't exactly stop dead upon the issuance of this change order. Yet, I have still seen more of those than the red ones.

Yet when I look carefully in the Sue Richardson book 'Diecast Toy Aircraft: An International Guide' and pull out my magnifying glass to read Memo 20892 featured in Figure 87, I am told this memo is essentially a 'change order' dated 23.5.59. Given what I am looking at, it appears to me (and I could be wrong) that the tranfers on the blue ones were spirit based, and the change not only indicates a colour change to all the cheatlines but the change to the transfer types as well. Assuming my assumptions are correct (??), it could perhaps explain why the blue lined 998's didn't show discolourization, but it doesn't explain why some of the red ones do, and some don't . That would suggest a mix of transfers (water-based vs. spirit) yet the 'change order' is quite clear. 'WATERSLIDE' it says . . . and one would expect a complete series of red lined 998's with either NO discoIourization or ALL discoIourization. But we have both, according to your photos. I'll admit -- I'm baffled.

I guess we'll never really know for sure, eh? All this documentation straight from the source, yet STILL ambiguity.

Side Note: I have a 'red' one (w/steel gold wheels) that has some discolouration to the transfers, but the rest of the model is in extremely nice condition. (I paid a fortune for it in the late 90's from a UK seller.)

I note that the Britannia with 'blue' must be the rarer of the 3 variants {the last one having grey instead of silver} as it was probably only in production for well less that a year, perhaps only once before the change to 'red' so we could think of a post 1960 date for the general use of spirit transfers at the earliest in British production. Still nothing to confirm this.

I would agree, but Memo 20892 alludes to the end of spirit-based transfers on 23.5.59.

There was 'blue' and a 'red' version of the box, too. see below. The 'red' version has non-yellowed decals.

I'm still looking for that Super Toy 998 box with the red cheatlines as in your photo. I'd almost be happy with a first-rate reproduction, but I can't imagine they'd get the silver right. I also have a very crisp original version with the blue cheatlines as well (no inner liner, though). This has been as close as I've been able to get to the 'red' box.

BTW, You just don't see Britannias {any of them} around any more . It was hard to find in the 1980s and expensive, too.

The last one I saw was a blue one, mint condition w/correct box at a Toy Fair here in Toronto two years ago. The fellow was asking $400. Honestly, it looked like it was new-old store stock, and it wasn't a restore job.

Here is the last grey version with 'red' transfer decals showing the yellowing.

Ah, yes . . . the last of the line with the black plastic wheels.

Same with the French and UK Viscounts, The first British one which was in production for less than a year, should be very much harder to find, and more expensive, but the market doesn't differentiate between these variants. Personally I find the BEA version the hardest to find, don't know why.

Here is the British Air France one in production for less than a year.


BTW, I have probably 2 or 3 of the early English Viscount, i think two loose and one in the box- but will have to check when I return to the USA on Jan 23rd. PM or email me then and I look for them, or better yet please come to the Airplane only toy show in Florida on January 28th. There will be 1,000s of aircraft toys and models for sale or trade among the 20 or so collectors bring aircraft toys and models to the show. {My entire Dinky collection and many others {Dinky, Mercury, Solido, will be available, too.}
Go to viewtopic.php?f=3&p=5734#p5732

I will do, but getting to any show in Florida won't be possible this year. Part of my quest will have to be undertaken online through a reputable combination of agents/dealers in the UK. The rest through knowledgeable and trusted contacts via the forum world. (Crikeys . . . you'd think this was the fine art world the way I pontificate! )

[grwebster]

Re"I am of the understanding that spirit-based transfers do not yellow, whereas water-based ones do. Am I completely turned around on this?"

You know, may be I have it backwards. I just always thought the spirit ones yellowed, but I must admit I didn't look that closely at the work order. I now think you are probably right.

I too paid a lot for one of my Britannia's. I still think it is way under appreciated today and is one of the finest of the post war Dinkys. It is also rather rare, any version.

Of course another of my Britannias was a dinner gift when I invited another collector, Bernard Macaire {now deceased}, and his wife over to my place in Paris in the 1980s. Instead of the normal box of chocclates or a bottle of wine, he presented me with my first Britannia, mint in the box!

Another time, he gave me an unboxed Shetland! This one I gave to another US based collector. What goes around comes around, as they say in southern American!

[grwebster]

I have found an excellent discussion by an expert on this subject

http://www.talkmodeltoys.com/discus/mes ... 1217886745

he confirms the water slide ones came latter, plus there is some great discussion on the Britannia worth looking at.

[998]

I have found an excellent discussion by an expert on this subject

http://www.talkmodeltoys.com/discus/mes ... 1217886745

he confirms the water slide ones came latter, plus there is some great discussion on the Britannia worth looking at.

Mint in the box, eh? Only in my dreams.

Thanks for that link . . . I'll have a look-see and be back!