Which one of you should I be mad at?

[mett]

OK just kidding, but I was trying to win this one.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEDWX:IT

But someone bid more. Nice plane, I might have gone higher if teh box was a bit nicer and well,,, I got beat lol

I did just strike a deal on this. It wasnot really on my list, but it's pretty nice. And I had $45 lol
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEWNX:IT

Tom

[grwebster]

The first one was excellent, and nice box. The second one, too.
I do wonder when sellers say things like 'all mint except the prop which I believe is a replacement'. Believe? Why does he believe?
Well anyway it is very nice, good catch.

[mett]

I actually talked to him, nice guy. I think he works on them too as he has a large collection. But I know what you mean. I've seen real real bad ones. I've seen stuff with NEW and MINT in the title and then in the description a list of claws. OR, item was never taken from box, box is sealed in shrink wrap. Then a pile of pictures of the item out of the box, and they state the item you see is the actual item for sale. Now if they sate they took it out for imahes only I get it. But way back when I worked at a college and the repro dept had a shrink wrap machine. To easy to seal a box. You MUST be educated as a consumer, but it is hard. I try to learn what are reproduction hubleys, but some look identical. I know there must be some small things to look for I have not learned. For now I just want a few planes and a few other things. But use it as a learning experience.
This is a silly questions but do they have big toy conventions? Always a good place to learn things.

Thanks for the kind works.

[grwebster]

Tom, about big toy conventions, most of them have ceased, I believe.

There used to be a great show for airplane only collectors that I set up with Larry Mc Laughlin and some contributors and editors to The Plane News magazine. These ran for about 8 years in the 1980s-twice a year in the NYC area and once a year in LA. Also one show in Amsterdam, and several in the London area run by other TPN members - Sir George Cox and Philip Jewel mainly. It was just for airplane collectors, and all were well attended.

Some shows had dinners set up at the hotel and guest speakers. (The founder of the Aeromini line, Robert Metchik, was one notable guest speaker.)

Imagine 50 or more tables with only airplanes. The big advantage for all was that the sellers and buyers were mainly very knowledgable collectors sonew collectors could learn about the toys, too. The New York and LA shows ran at a deficit as we allowed Plane News members in free and the table fees were very cheap. But that wasn't the point- it was about collecting fellowship - so great fun for all. Show room rentals in hotels, tables, chairs, table cloths, security, ticket collectors, food beverage service minimums, and advertising in toy magazines all combine to make a formal toy show quite costly to put on.

The other general shows started failing even before ebay when state income tax staff showed up and would confiscate the entire stock of sellers not having the correct tax and business papers, papers and a receipt book. This put a big dent in toys shows.

Well, next came ebay, and that just about killed local toy shows.

As some of you know we started up a small get-together in florida 2 years ago {focused on the 1/200 scale collectors as Ron Crawford was visiting me at my place near Orlando and 6 or 7 other collectors wanted to get together).....and another one earlier this year was hosted by Dennis Ramsey in Orlando.

I think we could open the concept up and try to put together a very informal and casual show but still only for airplanes. We have almost 250 members here on the forum and I expect many would be interested in an opportunity to buy and sell airplanes- and most importantly meet other plane collectors.

This does require some advance organization, and expense if we have to rent a hall, tables, chairs, catering etc.... but may be we could start with one in Florida at my place and see how much interest there is. Stay tuned here. One major advantage of my place in central florida is that my collection is always on display and is unusual as it covers every aspect of airplane collecting. Negatives are cost of renting cars, hotel rooms etc. I can have campers on my property for those who do that, though.

Of course if someone else wants to put one on We would support that too.

Comments please.......

[grwebster]

Tom, about ebay. I have made about 1100 purchases over the years and have been mislead perhaps 3 times. And wonderfully surprised more than a hundred times. But one does need to have a good knowledge about the maker and the toys to avoid some problems. The big thing is to ask questions and request additional photos. If the photos or a reply are not provided, do not bid generously or not at all.

I am currently involved in an auction where the seller stated in the tittle that it was a rare item in an very unusual camouflage finish. Now I know that this airplane, an early postwar P-40 by Tootsietoy, which is a rather rare casting, was never issued in camouflage only silver with decals -so I inquired about it. The seller came back and said he repainted it to go with a camo set and meant the casting was rare. Ok, he was direct, honest, correct and only made a mistake in the title. Plus he posted my question and his answer for others to read. An solid trustworthy seller. But then I do not buy repaints so I won't be bidding.

Another time recently, I saw another mint looking toy in a finish I didn't have. The seller did not know if was repainted or not so he listed it as renovated to avoid hassles. But when I looked at it closely, I knew that it was 100 percent original. It was just not possible to repaint it without some trace showing, like badly pinched axels, wrong tires, oversprays, wrong props etc. (Ok, anything is possible- but the time and expense for a 15-25$ item just isn't worth it, no?)

Repainted toy can be easy to spot on good photos if you know the toy and the maker. And if you ask, reliable sellers will dialog with you.

[mett]

So much to follow up on.
As far as toy shows, I understand the changes of shows in the last 20-25 years. And yes ebay has changed a lot of areas of sales. I have been on ebay since 98. Some items have increased in value greatly, others have crashed as all of a sudden they are easy to find.

Today's market is very dynamic and transient. Not just what's hot and what's not, but the very ways they are done. Ebay had a massive impact. Now facebook is used to network people and pull viewers to their web sites. 2-3 years from now it may be all different. It's not like it was 30-40-50-60 years ago. Venues and the way we bought and sold stuff stayed the same for expended periods. Not sure if its better or worse. It's all opinions. It took me a long time to learn to just enjoy what we have.

As for misleading ebay articles, well that has been around since the Romans sold used chariot's. And they would hype that a chariots was only driven by an old lady to see Caesar on Sundays.

But there is a ton of stuff being faked out there. Guys in China stamp fake old coins, people make anything they can make a buck on. BUT they also at times just do it for kicks. So I do believe a $10 item could be a fake too. Maybe not as likely, but just like someone that takes an old car and customizes it and has $25k into it and sells it for $15k. Some just do it more for the love of doing it. Even if fraudulent. Being a retired cop I guess I look for fraud more than most? I'm also intrigued by the ingenuity and resourcefulness people in making or manipulating something as a fraud. At one point they said 95% or sport signatures were fake. Yet people still buy everything with a COA. And you can print them at home on an ink jet printer. People are gulable.

I'm glad I am just doing this for kicks. I don't have a large budget, and I just want a few things. But I see so many things that make me question what is going on. Someone on ebay right now has a ton of toys and grossly over priced. Searching some closed auctions of theirs I found 4 items out of 1000+ sold, and all small dollar items. Why post 2000+ items at 6-20x the market value? Is it to catch just 1 or 2 sales at big dollars? OR is it to try to artificially increase the valve of items they have so they can sell them under a different ID. I knew guys doing that with sports cards. I never knew if it worked. Like I said it does peak my interest.

Again you need to educate yourself and be careful.

[grwebster]

Tom, I never know if I am discussing things with a passionate 17 year old new collector or an old hand as yourself- Sorry if the explanations I give at times seem basic but now that I know you are much older, I will not repeat that error.

You are certainly right that some people do 'fakes' just for the fun of it. I have a Hubley set with the 'Thunderbolt/Corsair folding wing hybrid on a yellow flat bed trailer with towing tractor. The entire set was repainted and well described as such and it was not expensive. I am sure I have a few others in my collection like that which were not described as be re-done.

I do have some examples though of people I know well doing real fakes, ie well repainted, redecaled, repropped,etc. on old castings. I site two examples in my book on Dinky Toy Aircraft 1934-1979. But in these cases he sold them at real prices without explanation in an antique mall. I bought them as curiosities. He also did a Mercury Cutlass in blue that was so well done he could and did claim it was original- it was perfect except for the fact that Mercury never did it like that. I am sure some one bought it and I wait for it to reappear at some point. I would have liked to have it just as a curiosity to show others what a superb fake is.

This same fellow did special issue ERTL Force One jets that are superb. The only way to distinguish them besides the special finishes he created was the use of screws replacing rivets when he reassembled the model. These, BTW, he gave away as gifts to me and some other collecting friends, and I will never sell them on as I admire the effort.

The Dinky Toy collectors call these types of remade toys 'Code 3' instead of fakes or frauds but no matter. Code 1 is totally original, Code 2 is factory authorized toy castings assembled and refinished by some else. I believe there are promotional vehicles that were done in this manner. I do not collect cars so I know little about them.

[grwebster]

This is the repainted set. It was made for a limited time I am told and an original set is extremely rare, but there was a design flaw with the tractor attachment for the flat bed trailer, perhaps why it was withdrawn. The renovator replaced that piece with a stronger one.

[mett]

OK I love this line:
it was perfect except for the fact that Mercury never did it like that.
NOW I know people that in other venues would try to pass taht off as a rare promo model never released to the public and possibly a 1 of 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol Off the toy topic I am into reptiles too. Years ago a guy tried to sell my leusistic bearded dragons. $700 each. Well leusistis is a true genetic trait to the phenotype. After listening to 15 minutes of his sales pitch I said, gee I had no idea they had leusistics already in beardies? I mean I know you can line breed them to get them very white, are yours real leusistics or line bred lizards? With 6-10 people also looking on he bowed his head and said line bred. And teh people walked away knowing not his lizards were worth about $150. At that time if there was a true leusistic it probably would hve been worth $4000. There are fakes in many venues. Oh yea we caught one guy soaking ball pythons in orange gatorade to make them have an orange color and he was selling them for BIG bucks. After 1 shed they were worth $30.

Got to love hypemysters. and you can get as basic as you want. In any topic I may be a newbie or very knowledgable, but I have seen and heard things in areas I may be very knowledgable that are basic I never learned. SO, any info is good info to me. I'm womdering if I happen to know this great painter? I just started but met a few people on line that your description fits. I hate to bring this one up, but I wonder more about the boxs being faked. Get one good copy, scan it and you could easily make fakes. And at times the box is work as much as the toy. Sad we live in such a deceptive era. Want til 3d printers catch on. I;m 52 and glad I'm not 22 in many ways. then agin 22 was pretty damn fun!

[mett]

Ok my server is posting the wrong image? On the phone now to see what is going on.